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Eckhart Tolle and A New Earth – Is He Right About What’s Wrong?

March 14, 2008

For a number of years I had ongoing bouts with what I thought were recurrent ear infections. About once or twice a year I would become dizzy, light-headed and nauseated. Usually a night of rest would suffice to overcome the problem. Occasionally I would make a trip to the doctor where she would prescribe some antibiotics.But around the spring of 2001 I had an acute attack. Within a few hours I became so ill that I became dehydrated and ended up in the emergency room. The emergency room doctor gave me some fluids and made an appointment with an ear, nose and throat specialist for the next day. The ENT examined me and determined my problem wasn’t ear infections after all, but allergies. I left with a prescription for allergy medicine and a sense of relief that this problem has finally been solved.

Unfortunately, one week later I was back in the emergency room with an attack worse than the previous one. This time the emergency room doctor made me an appointment for a CT scan – possible brain tumor. I had the scan which was followed by an appointment with a neurologist. To my relief there was no tumor, but I sure did want some answers. The neurologist did all kinds of tests, none of which involved electronic equipment, drugs, or anything high-tech. He looked in my ears, my eyes, up my nose, hit my joints with a little hammer, asked lots of questions and then said, “I can tell you what is wrong with you.”

“Really?” I said with some doubt.

“Yea, you have Meniere’s disease.”

“What’s that and what can I do about it?” Were my obvious questions.

“It is a disease or syndrome of the inner ear. It causes the kind of things you have been experiencing like dizziness, nausea, tinnitus… My recommendation is that you watch your salt intake, keep it to a minimum, and your caffeine intake should be down to about zero. Some people have found that changing these things in their diet helps. There is no need to schedule another appointment with me. I will forward this info to your regular doctor.”

I listened to his advice changed these things in my diet and though I still have the disease, it is under control and I know how to handle it.

It matters whether or not a disease is correctly diagnosed. My primary care physician, the emergency room doctor, and the ENT all had my best interests at heart. They all meant well and gave me their best. I don’t doubt that. But they all got it wrong and I continued to be sick over and over. Each one of them had the same basic information. I was dizzy, nauseous, and had ringing in my ears. They all gave a different diagnosis and different prescriptions. And none of them helped. I didn’t get relief until I found a doctor who could correctly diagnosis the problem. All the physicians I visited could see the symptoms, only one saw the real root problem.

In A New Earth Tolle, like a good physician, diagnoses the human spiritual condition. He reminds us of the symptoms that point to an underlying sickness. We are all too familiar with those symptoms –fear, greed, power madness, violence, suffering, death (p. 10), pride (pp.81-84), and identity issues (chapter 4). Tolle also points to a prescription – an awakening, a shift in consciousness, A New Earth. But what if Tolle, well meaning as he may be, is wrong in his diagnosis of the symptoms? Can the doctor possibly point us down the path to wellness if he/she doesn’t correctly understand the underlying disease? We all agree there is a problem. The thing we which we struggle with is what is the solution? We know there is a disease, if there is a cure, what is it? Tolle calls the disease “our inherited dysfunction” (p.8). He goes on to state that within all of “humanity’s ancient religions and spiritual traditions there are two core insights that most of them agree on” (p.8). He mentions Hinduism and states it comes closest to the seeing this clearly, and then writes about the Buddhist version of the same idea. Then, Tolle says:

According to Christian teachings, the normal collective state of humanity is one of “original sin.” Sin is a word that has been greatly misunderstood and misinterpreted. Literally translated from the ancient Greek in which the New Testament was written, to sin means to miss the mark, as an archer who misses the target, so to sin means to miss the point of human existence. It means to live unskillfully, blindly, and thus to suffer and cause suffering. Again, the term, stripped of its cultural baggage and misinterpretations, points to the dysfunction inherent in the human condition.

I suspect that Tolle knows very well that is not at all the meaning of “sin” in the Bible. This is why he has to add the caveat to Christian teaching, something he doesn’t do with his statements about Hinduism and Buddhism. He has to say that “sin” has been misunderstood and misinterpreted and has to be stripped of cultural baggage in order to make fit with what he wants it to mean. Tolle’s understanding of the human condition probably does fit with and is in harmony with the teachings of Buddhism and Hinduism. And he certainly has the freedom to hold those views. But it is deception and misleading to make the kind of statement he does in the above quoted paragraph. He makes this statement so that he can mold the Bible and the teachings of Christ to fit his philosophies. But I don’t want to do what Tolle does – make statements like this without having solid reason for doing it. So read on if you want to know what the New Testament really says about sin: There are actually nine different Greek words that shed light on what the Bible means when it speaks of sin. Hamartia,hamartema, prakoe, anomia, paranomia, parabasis, paraptoma, agnoeman and hettema. Tolle is using the first one on the list hamartia. Tolle rightly states that the word originally meant “to fall short” and was used by the Greeks to describe a warrior whose spear fell short of striking his foe. The problem is Tolle then states that this means “to miss the point of human existence…to live unskillfully, blindly…” Is this what is meant in the Bible? It is not. Tolle is either misinformed, ignorant or intentionally misleading. You can decide for yourself which it is.

Let me briefly mention these other eight words that help us understand the Bible’s view of sin (this is already long so I will keep it short and if you want other references please ask).” Hamartema – is sin as disobedience to divine law. It is an act someone commits (Romans 3:25). Paroke – means failing to hear and thus sin is already committed in failing to listen attentively to God. It is usually translated by the English word disobedience. An illustration of this idea is found in Acts 7:57. That verse gives us a graphic picture of what many people do. The intentionally stop their ears from hearing God’s word. Anomia It is often times put in opposition to the word translated righteousness so that it shows sin to be a deviation from that standard of life set up by God. Parabasis – usually translated as transgression. Paraptoma – means to deviate from truth and uprightness. Finally, agnoema – carries the idea of ignorance and thus to sin through ignorance (Luke 23:34 is an example of this kind of sinning). – means lawlessness.

Returning to the word Tolle used. Did he accurately say what that word means in the New Testament? We don’t have to guess. That word is used 175 times and a little effort will produce a decent understanding of “sin.” Here are a few of the ways that word is used:

Matthew 1:21 She shall bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.

Matthew 3:6 (They) were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.

John 8:11 Go and sin no more.

1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee sexual immorality. Every sin that a man does is outside the body, but he who commits sexual immorality sins against his own body.

Acts 3:19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out…

John 1:29 Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

This is but a small sampling of the uses of this word in the New Testament, but even from this small sampling it is clear that sin does not simply mean missing the point of human existence or living unskillfully. Sin is something that can be confessed, sexual immorality is sin as are many other acts of disobedience to the Law of God, it is something than can be repented of, and it is what Jesus came to save his people from and what he, as the Lamb of God came to take away. For Tolle to simply say Christians have misinterpreted, misunderstood, and added cultural baggage to what the New Testament means by the word sin is intellectually dishonest.

So doctor Tolle has looked at the symptoms and given his diagnosis and used as evidence of the rightness of it Hinduism, Buddhism and the New Testament. Hinduism and Buddhism may very well agree with Tolle (I am no expert on either religion and those who are can speak for themselves), but the New Testament is not on Tolle’s side.

Yes, sin is the problem, but not in the way Tolle states. The falling short is not simply missing life’s purpose. It is missing the mark of God’s glory. It is falling short of the standard of righteousness written in the Law of God and seen in the life of Christ. It is what we have all done. “For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). Falling short is what we do when we create idols, worship other gods, take God’s name in vain, refuse Him the worship He deserves, dishonor our parents, murder, cheat on our spouses, steal, lie and covet.

Since Tolle doesn’t understand the disease, he doesn’t give us the prescription we need for true healing. “The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23). Jesus came, not to teach us how to have an awakening to a higher consciousness, but to give his life a ransom for sinners. All who believe in Him will be saved.

51 comments

  1. I understand what you are saying. I have to disagree though. It seems like you might be trying to find things wrong or dishonest in the book. In my mind, all sin, be it murder, cheating, whatever sin you want to pick is missing the point of our existence, isn’t it? I mean, yes, it goes deeper than that but it is missing the point. It has been for me. I am surely glad I figured that out. Life certainly is alot more pleasant for yourself and everyone around you when you are not missing the point of existence, right?

    I asked this before and you did not give me a direct answer. Are you actually telling us you think that people who live by the law of Jesus but do not know who he is, haven’t heard of him for whatever reason but live like him naturally are going to burn in hell? This is what I have a serious problem with. My heavenly father would NEVER do that.

    It is my opinion that Tolle is reaching millions of people from all walks of life in all different parts of the world. Let’s just say his book was based solely on the Bible and Christianity. It would not have reached nearly as many people. The way he wrote the book EVERYONE can get something good from it. Don’t you understand that? Some people have never heard of Jesus. Now they have. Look on the bright side. This book is drawing more people toward Jesus than away from him.

    I think you need to keep looking for those false teachers because Mr. Tolle is NOT one of them.


  2. Someone who truly tries to follow Christ,
    Sorry I didn’t answer your question clearly enough. I would disagree with the underlying assumption you are making: “Are you actually telling us you think that people who live by the law of Jesus…” According to Scripture, common knowledge, and personal experience there isn’t anyone who is living by the law of Jesus. I would refer you to Romans chapters 1 – 3. The point of those chapters is summed up in chapter three “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” The reason for Christ’s life and death and resurrection was redemptive. He is the only Savior. Does that mean I know everyone who has eternal life and everyone who doesn’t. Know. As someone once said, “There will be three things that surprise us in heaven: Who isn’t there, who is there and that I am there.” Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father except by me.” Acts tells us that “there is no other name under heaven, given among men, whereby we must be saved.” In John 3 we are told whoever believes is not condemned but the person who does not believe in Christ is condemned already.

    I can’t go any further than Scripture. Since I believe that the Bible is God’s primary and only objective, infallible source of revelation, then I depend on what it says. I don’t rely on what I feel, what I wish were true, what some man’s reason might argue for, etc.

    You say Tolle is not a false teacher. Then, why does he distort the plain meaning of Scripture concerning the nature of God, the nature of man, salvation, sin, heaven and hell?

    Look, I would have nothing much to say about this book, Tolle, Oprah etc. if he hadn’t tried to make his teachings seem like it was compatible with and in harmony with the teachings of Christ.

    He is the one who first said that orthodox Christians are mistaken and misinformed about these things. All I am doing is pointing out where that is misleading and a distortion of reality.

    I am glad you see my point in this post. You are the first to comment here. I continue to receive comments on the first post on this subject, but no one seems to want to try to refute the fact that Tolle was not honest in the way he portrayed the teachings of Scripture concerning the subject of sin.

    By the way, I don’t believe this book is drawing anyone toward Jesus, unless it is forcing people to think more deeply about what they believe about Jesus. The Jesus Tolle portrays is not the Jesus of the New Testament – but that is for a later post.


  3. “Are you actually telling us you think that people who live by the law of Jesus but do not know who he is, haven’t heard of him for whatever reason but live like him naturally are going to burn in hell? This is what I have a serious problem with. My heavenly father would NEVER do that.”

    I’ve never met anyone who lives like Jesus naturally. But then again, living like Jesus isn’t the point. The Bible says in Ephesians 2:8-9 that we are saved through grace by faith; not of works (living like Christ naturally, or whatever else you can do); it is the gift of God, lest any man should boast.

    In other words bro, let’s say you and I, for whatever reason are driving down the highway together in the same car and a semi in front of us jackknifes, it is carrying large quantities of gasoline, we hit the tanker truck and we all explode. You and I are together, standing before Christ in Heaven. He looks at you and then looks at me. “Why should I let you into Heaven?” Jesus asks the both of us.

    I, knowing me, may say something like, “because you are my Lord, because you are Holy and because I believe you are the Christ, you died to redeem me from sin that I, nor any other man, could never be saved from. I understand that I shouldn’t be able to be in your presence but only because of you, but because of your grace I should be LET into Heaven, by your redemption, LET, meaning only you can let me in.”

    Based on the comments you’ve said, you may say something like: “Jesus, I’ve heard of you, and I’ve tried to follow you to the best of my ability as I have understood your teachings. I missed the point of my existence (sin) and I understand that is sin, but I figured that out and then life became pleasurable since I was enlightened to this, and since that enlightenment, I’ve lived according to your laws. So I know I don’t deserve Hell.”

    Who will God choose and why? Me or you? One believes he doesn’t deserve Hell because he’s been enlightened to the fact that he’s missed the point of life but now he lives according to Jesus’ laws. Or someone who knows He doesn’t deserve Heaven but believes in only the mercy and grace of his Lord. One is works, the other is faith. Which one?

    What about the truck driver who also died, let’s say he never heard of Jesus, but was a good ole boy? Did he live the life and laws of Jesus naturally? Say he did, does he deserve into Heaven before we do? We both have admitted to sin, yet this man, who never even heard of Christ, lived naturally like him and he will get in and we won’t. Does that make sense? Based on your comment–it would seem rather unjust wouldn’t it? Since God is a just God, we would all have to be judged by the same standard, right? Not one living a certain way, another being ignorant of it, or another deserving it; but all of us getting there by the same road, only then would it be fair and just wouldn’t it?


  4. Good Morning. I, like a few others, have apparently stumbled upon your site while looking for a voice crying in the wilderness that brings the divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ back to the table. It is an unsettling realization that there is so much acceptance of this so called “New Age” thinking.
    But, we should not be surprised, and I know in my heart that there countless thousands of thousands who do agree with your inward witness. Challenging the Divinity of Christ is not new, the Nicene Creed comes to mind, and in all probability, this explosion of acceptance to the teachings of Eckhart Tolle and others who have walked the same path in the past, quite likely will continue in the future, until our Lord sees fit to draw this world to a close.

    I am a Canadian, and there is some interesting data on Mr. Tolle that provides some insight. I would recommend checking out the following URL and following the links therein:

    http://communities.canada.com/vancouversun/blogs/
    thesearch/archive/2008/01/31/oprah-loves-eckhart-
    tolle.aspx

    I have sat at the feet of our Lord for many years. I would like to say that I have found most of the answers to all of my questions but in all honestly I have not, in truth I realize that I do not even know all of the questions, but what I do know gives me peace, confidence and a strong sense of assurance that what is taking place now will pass and that which our Father in heaven has ordained will come to be.

    I could share many experiences with you but obviously this is not the platform. Do not be discouraged. Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world. My mind was given to me so that I could come to know and understand on a very personal level, a small portion of the love that radiates from God to all of us that believe in His Son, His Word, His love, His power and His divine will.

    I will share one story with you. Many years ago, for some unknown reason, in the evening, a sense of urgency within me came to my being that needed to be addressed. I believe this experience was entirely orchestrated by God. I prayed and explained that I knew God was a spirit, knew He loved me and knew that He had his hand on my life but I needed that personal touch from God that would still this sudden need I felt inside for his physical contact with me, in short I had explained to God that I needed a hug from Him. On the way home that evening I had seen a sign by the road indicating that there was going to be a evening Church meeting at a summer retreat nearby. I felt in my heart that I had to go there and after explaining the inward feelings I had to my wife, she agreed that I should go. I drove to the meeting and walked into a gathering of about 120 people or so. The service was already in progress. Then the Minister gave a call for all those who had a need, to come to the front of the room. No one moved, not one. A voice within me told me that if my need was to be met, I must go forward, and I did. Once I had moved forward from the extreme back of the room, others also followed. What took place at the front of the room would be considered as normal, a word of comfort, a prayer, laying on of hands to our heads as the Minister went down the row of all who were at the front on our knees. And finally, it was over and I stood up to leave, my inward need unanswered. Then from the side of the front of the room, an off duty RCMP Officer (he had his RCMP jacket on) came over to me and said, “I do not know who you are, but our Lord told me to give you a hug”. I shall never forget that moment as long as I draw breath. It is just one of a series of things God has done for me that will forever draw me close to Him.

    Why do I share this with you, you ask? I will tell you why. Our minds and our emotions are meant to be experienced. We are not supposed to render them to a state of passive non-resistance. Jesus said, “You do error, not knowing the Word, nor the power of God”. I will resist that which takes away His Divinity, that which lowers Him to just one of a small number of “enlightened ones”. I will resist those who say that His sacrifice was not necessary or that there are other ways. When Jesus prayed in the garden prior to His crucifixion, He was acutely aware of what was to transpire and His mind and emotions clearly showed it. The only non-resistance that Jesus displayed was to the will of God the Father. Big difference!

    I have been reading “A New Earth” (only a third way through) and so far the scripture verses he uses and the meaning he attributes to them are clearly from a different God the Father, Son and Holy Ghost that I know. If I put my findings down on paper, I could share them with you at a later point in time.

    God Bless you and yours and rejoice that your name is in God’s book!


  5. Dearest Pastaj,

    I am really having a fight with my ego right now because I really want to let you have it sista, but I am going to “try” to live by Christ’s example which by the way is “MY” point of existence (to NOT sin as best I can, to love, be kind and be helpful in whatever way I can). Whatever yours is is your business. You don’t know me, PLEASE do NOT presume to know what I will say to Jesus. I know I am not worthy but I will be saved by grace. All I am trying to say here is that there are people who grew up in completely different backgrounds than us and they have learned completely different religions. If those people have “tried” to be the best people they can naturally they will still go to hell? That just doesn’t seem right and according to Romans 2 it sounds like those people will go to Heaven.

    prolepticlife and pastaj, I will just believe what I believe and you can believe what you believe. Funny how two people can read the Bible and get to completely different thoughts of what it means.

    God Bless.


  6. Someone Who Truly Tries to Follow Christ,

    I apologize to have offended you. You are correct, I don’t know you, but please note my comment, “based on the comments you’ve said,” I kind of figured the “you don’t know me” argument would come up, so I placed that there, it was an observation to make a point, not a personal attack.

    As for the situation at hand, I was simply trying to illustrate how it would be rather unjust of our Lord Jesus to let those into Heaven who love the Lord God who know Him and trust Christ and then to let someone in based on a “works” condition. Christ said, “I am THE way, the truth and the life.” (emphasis mine) But Him being the way, doesn’t much mean there is another way. You can’t turn left when you should have turned right and end up in the same place you intended. It’s just not possible.

    If I can live according to Christ’s laws without Christ or knowledge of Him, what was the point of His death, or His ressurection? ANYONE could do it then and brag to God they did it without Him (since they never heard of Jesus); yes, instead, they did it with Oprah, or Eckart Tolle, or Dave Ramsey, or Proleptic or Pastaj, or maybe they did it with all of those plus the Bible! I believe what the Bible has taught, “there is no other name in Heaven, whereby we can be saved.” It is Christ and Christ alone. Not Christ and somebody else’s enlightenment.

    My point is, “living like him naturally” isn’t going to get anyone to Heaven.

    Proleptic, good post bro, keep it up.

    Your bro, J


  7. prolepticlife & pastaj,

    Okay, I will just leave it at this. Before I read “A New Earth” I read the Bible now and then. While reading “A New Earth” I kept thinking about the Bible and how so much of it rang true but I could not quite grasp it with just the Bible. I was like, YES, that is what the Bible meant, it finally made sense in so many areas that it didn’t to me before. Now, after completing “A New Earth” I can not get enough of the Bible and I understand it so much more deeply than I did before. I know for a fact that many other people feel this way. I don’t know how that can be a bad thing. Before reading “A New Earth” I lived by my EGO most of the time. I hurt other people not even understanding what I was doing, I was hurting myself too. Now, my ego tries to get the better of me but I am always aware that it is there and I think before I do or say anything. I did not do that before. I ask you again, how can this be a bad thing? Eckhart Tolle and Oprah are not asking anyone to abandon their faith, what I get from them is they are trying to help people get closer to God, be AWARE that there is God and the power WE could all have thru our free will on this planet if we all would get in touch with Him. It worked in my case, worked in countless other cases and is still working on more. I look forward to “A New Earth”, it has been a long time coming and by the way, prolepticlife, I don’t see anything wrong with the John Lennonite people who really think “Imagine” could become a reality. If only EVERYONE believed like that!!! That is the point whether you want to admit or not. I have to say you are really stubborn. That’s okay though, I can be too. Have a wonderful day!

    God Bless. :) )


  8. Someone,
    Yea, my wife tells me I am stubborn sometimes also. Have you really thought about the words of “Imagine?” Nothing to live or die for, no religion, no heaven, no hell, etc.

    Anyway, I suspect, please don’t be offended by this – I suspect that you are using the term ego in a different way that Tolle is using it. If you mean ego in the sense of pride, arrogance, self-righteousness than by all means let’s all seek to be free from ego. If you mean ego in the way Tolle does, then I have to politely as I can decline and I would hope you would as well.

    I intend to post about it later but Tolle’s view of human nature is not the view of human nature as expressed and taught in the Bible. Tolle’s view is dangerous, when carried out to its logical conclusions.

    But more on that later.


  9. Great post, Pro…I really appreciated your medical analogy. Reading Someone’s comments, though, reinforces my concerns with some Christians (mainly those who aren’t getting sound biblical teaching at their churches) getting a hold of this book. I look forward to future posts on this…


  10. prolepticlife,

    Regarding your comment about the song, “Imagine”, before you pointed out those lyrics I had never really thought about them. I looked up the lyrics and then pondered them for a while. Although I was not with John L. when he wrote this song I don’t think he is saying there should be no heaven or hell. My comprehension of this song is to “imagine” this world with no heaven, hell, religions, countries. If there were no heaven or hell there would be no religions which means there would be no killing people because of their beliefs. If there were no countries there would be no races, so there would be no racial crimes and no wars. I think this is the world everyone in there deepest heart would want. Imagine it. It is not about not having a Heaven or Hell but people just loving each other because we are all the same (inside). It’s about imagining what it would be like, not it actually being that way. What IF people actually didn’t care what religion, faith, race anyone was, they just saw them as themselves (loved them as themselves) what this world would be like. It might be hard for you but I am there and am so ready to see this come to light.

    Good Luck on Your Journey!! God Bless!


  11. I have just written a short message entitled:
    Consciousness Gurus” The message can be found
    on the index page of the Believers Information Network.


  12. AIMS is the sickness the ‘doctors’ are not able
    to diagnose.

    What is aims ?

    Acquired Irrational Mind-Set(aims) is a common metal dysfunction that is conveyed from generation to generation. It is transmitted socially from parents to their children, and it reinforced by the social system, by a process called; ‘education’. It is acquired at a very early age, by means of applied social pressure. Man is born into an aims infected society. The Word refers to aims infected man as “natural man”, and to those who are cured from aims as “spiritual man”.

    Who is infected with aims?

    Every human being that is born, gets infected with aims. It happens at a very early age, usually before the end of the first year of a person’s life. The social pressure is overwhelming and all humans beings are subject to the curse. Aims is the curse that has haunted mankind since the fall of Adam and Eve. Once a person has fallen, he will be saddled with aims(an irrational mind-set) until he is cured, or until he physically dies, should he not be cured. This is the message according to my gospel.

    What are the symptoms of aims?

    Aims is the only mental dysfunction that exists, all other dysfunctions are symptoms of aims. Some of the symptoms of aims are; war, pollution, sexual abuse, abortion, homosexuality, alcoholism, drug addiction, obesity, depression, anxiety attacks, murder, lying, stealing, hatred, jealousy, and many more deviant behavioral manifestations. Everything that is wrong with man, is caused by aims.

    Besides these symptoms, there are also the fabricated social dysfunctions. These symptoms are clearly apparent in the so called sciences like mathematics, and physics, however they are present in all the branches of ‘knowledge’. Elementary principles are distorted, false premises made, which then lead to false theories, in an attempt to make sense out of nonsense. The ’special theory of relativity’ is a case in point. Another example relates to number theory, and the fallacy of incommensurability. See ” The Inconvenient Reality ” for an outline of the skewed logic of those infected with aims.

    How can aims be cured ?

    There is only one cure for aims; conversion, the restoration of reason. Conversion is the process whereby man confesses in faith that he is infected, and then asks for forgiveness by showing remorse. Once this is done natural man is transformed and becomes spiritual man.

    Aims exposed and eradicated.

    My Heavenly Father has sent me to complete my task, to remove the curse, once and for all, and to separate the sheep from the goats.

    The Faithful Witness
    Duke(Yeshua)


  13. Duke,
    Way off topic


  14. Forgot all about this until I saw the link in my bookmarks.

    Thank you for the kind mentions, reasoned viewpoints, and excellent writing :) .


  15. The real question is whether sin is defined as a mistake that deserves punishment from God, or as a mistake that simply calls for correction.

    The way that sin is usually defined is as the former. And this stems from the Christian belief that God is a punishing God. The Garden of Eden story illustrates God’s punishing nature, and if you believe that story to be true, then you will naturally believe everything else in the Bible.

    But I believe that the Garden of Eden story is a very powerful myth that comes straight out of our unconscious ego. It comes from our deepest fear – that we could actually have done something that would separate ourselves from God forever.

    Yet, what if no such thing actually happened? What if we are still one with God right now, merely dreaming that we are separate? Why would you continue to punish yourself by believing you are separate from Perfect Love?

    When I look at the underlying premises of the fundamentalist Christian faith, I cannot see how it could possibly true. If God is perfect Love, as the Bible says He is, then how could He also have qualities that we would ascribe to a devil: selfishness, pride, anger, judgment, jealousy, etc..? These are not loving qualities. Therefore, since the God of the Bible is attributed with these qualities, then He must have been greatly misunderstood.


  16. Erik,
    I would ask how one can accept one thing the Bible teaches and reject another? You seem to want to accept at least a part of what the Bible teaches about God and yet want to reject other parts. You ask, “what if no such thing happened?” I would ask what if it did? It seems, by the way that Jesus based his whole ministry and purpose on this understanding of sin and God that is taught throughout the Bible.

    I don’t believe I am separated from the love of God because Jesus Christ redeemed me through his death and resurrection.

    Your definition of love is very narrow and sentimental.

    Thanks for great questions.


  17. Prolepticlife,
    It is quite easy to accept part of what the Bible says, and reject other parts because the Bible is very conflicted. It openly promotes teachings that are diametrically opposed to eachother. For example, it teaches that “Thou shalt not kill”, and yet I believe it says it Deuteronomy that you should stone to death people who have committed adultery. That’s just one example. People have written entire books about all the conflicting teachings in the Bible.

    The reason the Bible is conflicted with itself is because the writers of it had split minds. Some of the time they were inspired by the Holy Spirit; other times by the ego (or the devil, you might say, although I don’t believe an actual devil exists). The ego (as Eckhart teaches it) is basically the part of us that is antiChrist – the part of us that is supremely selfish.

    I’m not sure why you said that my definition of love is very narrow and sentimental. My definition of love is actually so infinite that it cannot be defined. If it had to be defined, I would simply define love as God – eternal, limitless, and infinite Spirit that is the Source of our being.

    What do you think?


  18. Also, I understand that you believe that it is your belief in the Jesus Christ’s death for your sins that is the source of your redemption, but what about people who lived BEFORE the time of Christ. Did they all just go to hell?

    How did people make it back to Heaven before Jesus lived?


  19. Erik,
    I don’t find the Bible to conflicted with itself at all. Just sticking with the example you cited as evidence – The commandment has to do with murder, not with civil authorities carrying out capital punishment or with an individual taking a life to protect their own life or the life of another person, or nations using military power for self-preservation.

    As to your reason for what you say is contradiction – that of course means that you or tolle or whomever become the ultimate arbiter of what is right or wrong in the Bible. Or maybe it would be more accurate to say that you or Tolle or anyone else then get to decide what in the Bible comes from the ego and what comes from the Holy Spirit.

    As a side note, I find it interesting that you can agree with Tolle’s theology and yet at the same time suggest that there is such a person as the Holy Spirit.

    As to love – Tolle says that is not correct to say that God is love. At least on this one point he is trying to be consistent. Love requires duality (using Tolle’s words) that is love requires at least two persons. Since, in Tolle’s view this thing (and I am not misusing the word thing because Tolle doesn’t see God as a personal being) is in everything and since this thing is not a duality in Tolle’s view love is not really possible – at least not as a way to define or describe God.


  20. Erik,
    good question about those who lived prior to Christ. The cross event was not God’s “plan B.” The cross was anticipated from the very beginning. It is seen in the types and prophecies of the Old Testament. But more specifically, people preceding the cross were redeemed on the same basis as those after the cross – through faith. Abraham is actually the one that is pointed to as the supreme example of redemptive faith – “Abraham believed God and it was imputed to him as righteousness.”


  21. Prolepticlife,
    Well I suppose there’s no use in arguing, since we both have very different beliefs about the nature of God and reality, and neither of us seems eager to let go of what we believe. You are obviously at peace with your beliefs, as I am with mine.

    I, like you, have complete faith in God’s eternal Love for me. And yes, as you correctly pointed out, I don’t believe this Love is dualistic or personal (from God to me, for example). I simply say it like I did because language is dualistic by definition, and so to say that God loves me is merely a metaphor for the truth in my theology. Ultimately, I believe that God is one with my Self (not my ego-self or body, mind you, which are merely illusions, but my true Christ Self or Spirit). In this sense, Love simply is. It is equated with God – infinite, eternal, and unbounded.

    May peace always be with you,
    Erik


  22. I do have one other question though. If God knows everything, then how do you rationalize in your theology the idea that God created children who He knew would rebel against Him?

    Also, why would He set it all up so that His true Son had to be murdered in order for the rest of His “adopted” children (as St Paul once called us) to be saved from eternal suffering?

    Why not just create beings who would naturally WANT to glorify Him and worship? Why create beings that He knew would end up suffering in hell FOREVER? What purpose would there be in this?


  23. Another question. (Sorry for all the questions – I don’t mean to sound offensive or argumentative… I’m just sincerely curious as to how and what you believe.)

    Where in the Bible does Jesus say that he came to die for our sins that we may be saved through him? I know that the writers of the Bible may have said that, but is there any record of Jesus saying that himself?

    As I’m sure you’ve gathered from my posts, I don’t believe Jesus came here to die for our sins. I believe he came to tell us that our sins have already BEEN forgiven by God and thus we are already saved. This is why he said (and I don’t have the exact quote) that “whoever believeth in me shall be saved”. This doesn’t mean that we must believe in him as a person, but that we believe in WHAT HE IS TELLING US. He is telling us that we are forgiven already – and THIS is what saves us from our suffering!

    Jesus came to save us from our suffering by telling us that God has already forgiven us, for how could He not have forgiven us when His Love is infinite and unconditional. Do you not believe God’s Love is unconditional? Well, I can assure you that it IS with absolute certainty through the Spirit that enflames every fiber of my being!

    All of us are saved, for our mistakes have had no effect on God’s Love for us, just as an innocent little child’s mistakes have no effect on the love of that child’s parents for it. This is the message that Jesus came to give us.


  24. This discussion is fantastic! I am so amazed at your depth of knowledge and understanding of the Bible Proleptic. I found this site because I have purchased “A New Earth” though I have had an uneasy feeling about it before and since. So I went to see what the Christian community had to say.
    Erik you bring up some great questions though I do agree with everything Proleptic has said. A big thank you Proleptic for answering them so thoroughly. I look forward to reading more.


  25. Sorry one question . . . are you recommending not even reading this book? Or read it so I have some understanding of what the big hype is all about? Thanks a bunch.


  26. Jennifer,
    thanks for the kind words. I don’t think I want to be recommending people read or not read the book. I read it. In my opinion it comes down to how discerning you can be. Some people buy into everything that sounds good and ought to be more cautious. Paul mentions a people from Berea in the book of Acts that tested everything he wrote and said to them to see if it were true. If you can be Berean about it, I don’t see the harm in reading. I’m not a book burner or book banning type of guy. Not that you were suggesting I was, but I know how some people think -


  27. Erik,
    Jesus actually did tell us to do more than just believe what he was saying. He usually used phrasing like “believe in” Him rather than simply believe Him. Contrary to Tolle’s theology of salvation which directs us to look inward, Jesus and the rest of the Scriptures direct us to look outside of ourselves to Jesus Christ.

    To give one example of Christ pointing to the cross and faith in what happened there as the means of salvation and forgiveness, Jesus said in John 3:14 “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.”

    The incident Jesus was speaking of involved a judgment which fell on the Israelites because of their rebellion against the Lord. The were being bitten by deadly serpents and God instructed Moses to create a brass (brass being a symbol of judgment) serpent and place it on a pole. The pole was a “flag pole” not like ours but a “T” shaped or cross shaped pole. This was placed in the middle of the camp and anyone who was bitten and thus dying only had to look at the serpent on the pole to be healed. The “look” was a look of faith. If they believed they would look.

    This, to Jesus, was a type or foreshadowing of his own sacrifice. He would be lifted up on a pole, he would bear in himself that which was killing mankind (sin), and anyone who believed in him only need to look or exercise faith in Him to be saved.

    I could go on and on with similar statements of Jesus but it would be like quoting the gospel records over again. Jesus never presented himself as a teacher who was conveying a message and getting people to believe the message alone as his mission. Jesus always pointed to himself as the One in whom people are to believe.

    That goes to a point I tried to make elsewhere. One can’t tip a hat to Jesus and say he was a good teacher and that’s it. If He isn’t the LORD than he was a nut case. If He isn’t the Savior, then he was a raving egomaniac.

    Sorry I haven’t tried to answer your other questions yet, Erik. They are great questions and deserve answers equal to the question. It has been a very busy couple of days and I just haven’t had time yet. Hopefully, this evening I will be able to reply.


  28. Proleptic,

    The law is written on our hearts, the Bible says this. Our hearts are inside of our bodies but really our souls, at least that is the way I see it so wouldn’t we look inward to find God/Jesus? Could you not see how someone could gather this conclusion from the Bible? That is how I interpret it, we can “look” all day long but if you don’t “feel, believe it”, it is not happening. Feeling and believing in Jesus comes from within FIRST. What reading “A New Earth” did for me was teach me to silence my ego the majority of the time, how is one to silence their ego without looking within, how is one to actually hear Jesus in our hearts without silencing the ego.

    God/Jesus is accessible to EVERYONE (surely that means EVERYONE even if they have never heard of Jesus or never had access to an actual Bible but they listen to their HEARTS, where the law is written)so my question is this. This is so obvious to me, I really can’t figure out why some people can’t grasp it. If people have faith, believe in Him, try to please Him but they call Him a different word but feel the same way, believe the same way about him as we do, just call him something different (maybe because they never heard of Jesus or maybe it was how they were raised, whatever reason) they won’t be saved? Do you REALLY believe this? In one of Pastaj’s posts he made it sound like it didn’t matter what we did here, as long as we humble ourselves before Jesus after we die, I believe that mostly but, I get a lot more from the Bible than that. The more I seek the more I know we are to bring Jesus to everyone. I know some people call it spreading the good news. Jesus said love God with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind and love your neighbor as yourself. If we do these things first we will be spreading Jesus’s message, not by talking about him but by SHOWING. Actions speak louder than words. This is the message that I have received from “A New Earth” and many other resources. This rings true in my heart more than anything that I have learned about God in the past. I can feel that it is right. This is what “A New Earth” is trying to teach, yes, Tolle may use different words but don’t we all want the same thing. Love and peace for EVERYONE. Do you really think Jesus cares what word people call him as long as they hear HIM? In the first, very first original Bible what was Jesus called, was it Jesus, I have heard the word Yeshua and some other names, words? Are we absolutely certain that Jesus is even the right name, maybe we have it wrong? uh oh :) )), that was a little humor.

    Have a great blessed day Proleptic, I enjoy reading your posts!

    Someone


  29. Someone,
    Good to hear from you again. Sorry for my delay in responding, but I have been busy and taking a semi break from this…

    You make some interesting points to which I would like to share some thoughts.

    I think you agree with the idea that the “law is written on the heart.” It is a concept that is taught in the Bible and one which I accept first because it is taught in Scripture, and secondly because it rings true in human experience. So I think we agree on that point.

    Where I believe we don’t see things the same way is when we are defining what that means. You seem to be equating the law with Jesus. You seem to be saying that when the Scriptures speak of the law on the heart that it means we all have the person of Jesus indwelling us.

    The law in the heart is not talking about Jesus, nor is it suggesting that we are all already believers. Paul describes the law as a “school master” whose job it is to bring us to Christ. In other places the law is described as a mirror. It is a mirror because it is used by the Spirit of God to show us how short we come of meeting God’s standard of righteousness.

    The point Paul is making in Romans chapters one – three is that some people see the problem because they have the written law (the Old Testament). But those without the written law still realize the problem because they have the law in the heart. The law in the heart is not as effective in some senses as the written law, because even it is distorted by our fallen sinful natures.

    The purpose of the law is not to get us to look inside to find the light of Jesus within. It is used by God to show us our spiritual darkness and drive us to receive life and light in the person of Jesus Christ.

    I think your root question pertains to those who might be truly longing to be forgiven and find a relationship with God. Will they be saved apart from the Jesus of the New Testament. The short answer is, no. Having said that I would also say that those who have seen themselves as they truly are, recognize their own wickedness, become aware of the coming judgment of God and long for deliverance/salvation/forgiveness will find God able and capable of bringing the good news of salvation in Jesus Christ to them.

    In the Middle East where access to the gospel is restricted by government, there are many people coming to faith in Christ through dreams about Isa (the Arabic word of Jesus). The Scriptures give examples of people like the Gentile Cornelius and the Etheopian eunch who were searching and God moved people to bring them the good news. There are other examples and only God Himself knows how many mysterious and miraculous ways people have come to know about Christ. My point is, as Jesus said, “anyone who wants to come to me (Jesus) I will in no way cast out.”

    As far as I know there is no question about the name of Jesus. Yes there are other lingusitic forms of the name, like the one mentioned above. But it is not about the particular language form of the name, it is about the person. And those two things should not be confused. You seem to be suggesting that Jesus is more of a concept, an idea, or a feeling. Jesus Christ is an historical person. He was born, had a life, a very important death, he rose from the dead, is seated in the heavens, and is coming again. The Bible clearly teaches that He is the only way of salvation. I believe in a God who is more than capable of bring the message of salvation to the world. And I am happy to say He is doing just that.

    I certainly have no quarrel with demonstrating the love of Christ through our actions. I always pray that is what I will do in my daily life.

    And feel free to throw any humor you want into the mix. I love to laugh.

    God Bless


  30. Thanks so much for commenting on this proleptic!! I’ve been searching the internet looking for a Christian view of the New Earth. I too think Oprah is getting caught up in something that she believes in her heart to be true and good, but I believe she is sadly leading so many people astray!!! and many of them are Christians. I was so glad to read this particular posting to “Someone” because these are thoughts and conversations I’ve had and can never find the right way or words to get my point across. This says pretty much what I believe in reference to people calling Jesus something else, if they call him something else, he’s probably not the Jesus I know……….Thanks so much!!! BTW I haven’t read Eckharts book, I was trying to avoid that because I realized I need not fill my head with gibberish when I can get all I need from studying the Bible. I wish Oprah realized this, everything she is looking for is found by SEEKING GOD!!! But, you have to look and search and be in the scripture to find the answers and his Holy Spirit will guide you to what you seek, and you come to understand we won’t get “all the answers.” God doesn’t reveal his plans to us all the time. We may not always know why we are in the place we are in. Which is what everyone reading the New Earth is looking for anyway.


  31. Thanks for the kind words Alicia. When I read A New Earth and those that are promoting it (I heard Shawn Hannity on Hannity and Colmes give Tolle a plug the other night) it reminds me of Paul’s words to the Colossian Christians:

    “In (Christ) are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. Now this I say lest anyone deceive you with persuasive words…Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.” Colossians 2:3,4,8,9

    God Bless


  32. here is not a grain of evil in Eckhart Tolle!
    He does not seek power or fame or anything. I saw him 3 times and can say for sure that he is helping a LOT of people.
    Religion beomes an ideology, a map about spirituality (the landscape) which can prevent one from experiencing WALKING in the spiritual LANDSCAPE. And that is an ESCAPE… Wake up! Be open and inquire and suspend the paranoia for a moment…


  33. Dan,
    To say “There is not a grain of evil in Eckhart Tolle” is quite a statement. It is the kind of statement I would use for Jesus Christ. I would never say it of myself, my wife, my sons, my daughters-in-law, my grand daughter, my friends, my parents, my neighbors or anyone else I can think of. Maybe you were merely exaggerating.

    I can’t imagine seeing someone three times is all that is necessary to make such a bold statement.

    You probably haven’t noticed, but Tolle is promoting a religion. He may not like to call it that and he denies he is teaching a religious system. But all you have to do is read “A New Earth” to find that he has a view of god, man, salvation, heaven, hell, and a host of other religious concepts. Just saying it isn’t religion doesn’t make it so.

    I appreciate you commenting though.


  34. Hi Prolefic

    Just my 2 cents worth. I am sure you have heard this before, but I would be interested to hear your take. Is it possible that Jesus was never even a real person in history? I have done some detailed studies on the matter and there is not a single historian alive the same time that Jesus was supposed to be alive who ever mentiones him in any of their writtings. Surely someone who did such great works would have been mentioned somewhere? Does this not seem strange that the only evedince for Jesus other than the bible is all hearsay?


  35. Starman,
    I don’t know of any credible contemporary historian who would conclude that Jesus wasn’t a real person. Of course, there is plenty of debate about the details of his life, but as to the historicity of his life, no one I know of seriously doubts it. There are other mentions of Jesus outside the New Testament (Josephus for one). But even if the New Testament were the only source document, if you throw it out, you end up undermining every other historical document we have. There is more evidence for the life of Jesus than there is for almost every historical figure you can name. Bruce Cooper had a good comment on this point following another one of the posts on this topic.

    I’m not sure what you mean by hearsay – that in itself seems to suggest that there are sources outside the New Testament.


  36. Hi there Proleptic,

    I was wondering if you have read the Gnostic Gospels? In my research I came across them and have been reading them and they are pretty darn interesting. What is your opinion of these gospels and why do you think they are not true? More importantly, how can anyone be absolutely sure they are not true, not saying they are, just constantly searching for more knowledge. I am sure I will be studying them for a while, lots to ponder.

    Thanks,
    Someone


  37. Hi again Proleptic

    Thanks for the reply. As for your reply – that is what I also thought, untill I acctually started searching for the truth instead of just accepting what I was being told. This is what I found :
    No one has the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts.(Unlike your statement that There is more evidence for the life of Jesus than there is for almost every historical figure you can name.)
    All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary writing that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus got written well after the life of the alleged Jesus from either: unknown authors, people who had never met an earthly Jesus, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings.
    Hearsay means information derived from other people rather than on a witness’ own knowledge.
    Authors of ancient history today, of course, can only write from indirect observation in a time far removed from their aim. But a valid historian’s own writing gets cited with sources that trace to the subject themselves, or to eyewitnesses and artifacts. For example a historian today who writes about the life of George Washington, of course, can not serve as an eyewitness, but he can provide citations to documents which give personal or eyewitness accounts. None of the historians about Jesus give reliable sources to eyewitnesses, therefore all we have remains as hearsay.
    I can write a lot more, but hopefully you get the point. How do I justify these facts to myself as a believing christian ?


  38. Hi Someone

    You pose some good questions.
    I also have a hypothetical question here. If there Gnostic Gospels won the war and was accepted as the truth instead of the gospels we see in the bible today, and if the gospels of the current bible were hidden in a cave and discovered almost 2000 years later, would people be saying the stories in the gospels are as crazy as they claim the stories from the gnostic gospels to be? Do you think people would take a man walking on water ect ect, as serious? Is it just that we have been so indoctrinated to believe the bible’s gospels, that our identities will not allow us to think anything outside of that box?


  39. Someone,
    Since there are several books that have been labeled the Gnostic gospels it is hard to give specific answers to your questions. In general I would suggest that there is nothing inherently wrong with reading these works anymore than there would be something inherently wrong with reading “Moby Dick” or “Purpose Driven Life.” I think the real question you may be getting at is: are these writings to be given the same level of credibility as the gospels of the New Testament. My answer would be, no. Starman would say none of them have any validity. But I think he is approaching it from a bias against the supernatural or miraculous.

    The historical basis on which it was decided which books were to be considered a part of the Canon of Scripture is as follows:

    1. Apostolic Authority – was it written by an apostle or a close associate of an apostle?
    2. Antiquity – If the work was by an apostle or someone closely associated with an apostle, it must belong to the apostolic age. While writings like the Shepherd of Hermas was held in high regard by some early church fathers, they didn’t include it as a part of the Canon of Scripture because of its late date.
    3. Orthodoxy – Did the work agree with the apostolic faith, the faith set forth by the apostles? The Gospel of Peter was rejected primarily because of its account of the crucifixion. In it the Lord’s death is portrayed from a docetic view – it implied that Jesus did not really suffer.
    4. Catholicity – (I am using the word in the classical sense of the church universal not in the sense of the Catholic Church as opposed to the Presbyterian, etc.) Was the work recognized by the wider church or was it only receiving local recognition? We know, for example, that Paul wrote other letters than the ones we have in the New Testament. It is likely they didn’t survive because their particularly local nature.
    5. Traditional Use – This has been defined as what has been believed everywhere, always by all. If a church leader in the 3rd or 4th century showed up with a book no one had ever heard of it would have not been accepted. It is helpful to remember that the early church was founded on the heals of the crisis of the crucifixion and the miracle of resurrection. The apostles began proclaiming the message and preaching the gospel, forming communities of faith, dealing with the issues as they arose, etc. In other words, they didn’t sit down after the resurrection and say, “We ought to write some books about this.” The gospels arose as needed to give a full account of the history of Christ, Acts was written to explain how Christianity went from being a small band of Jewish disciples to a universal movement exploding across the Roman empire, and the epistles were written to answer specific questions and deal with issues as they arose among the churches. My point is that it is natural that these questions would eventually arise as to how to determine the validity of the books that were to be used by the church.
    6. Inspiration – Inspiration refers to the divine stamp of the working of the Holy Spirit in the writing. The vocabulary was of the author, the message was of the Holy Spirit.

    Beyond that long answer I suppose that one would have to get into the specifics of any one book to understand why it was or was not accepted into the Canon of the New Testament. Possibly those questions were answered for you in what was written here.


  40. Starman
    I understand your comment and what you are contending. My answer was admittedly brief and incomplete for a very good reason. This kind of forum really isn’t sufficient to debate the issues you are raising. Numerous lengthy and scholarly volumes have been written dealing with these questions concerning the authenticity and dating of the various books of the New Testament. I could no more defend these questions in a reasonable and useful way in the comment section on this or any blog than you can defend your statements in the brief space you have on this blog.

    That is not to suggest the debate can’t happen – it has been ongoing for centuries and I suspect will continue to go on until the Lord Jesus returns (I know you don’t believe he is returning but you get my point). I would be happy to supply an extensive bibliography on the subject if that would help anyone. And it would not be a bibliography slanted toward my beliefs, but one that fairly represents both sides of the issue concerning the authorship, canonicity and validity of the New Testament books.

    I will repeat my earlier statement that I don’t know of any credible historian who denies the historical existence of the person named Jesus. There are many who will deny the resurrection of this person, the apostle’s portrayal of this person, the things attributed to him in the gospels – but not Jesus existence. Most critics have taken the path of trying to “recover the Jesus of history,” and not deny the Jesus of history.

    You seem to approach your hypothesis from two angles – 1. The gospels and other writings of the New Testament were made up years after the life of someone you say didn’t even exist in some kind of strange Jewish sect conspiracy or something, 2. You are not satisfied with the historical evidence or lack there of for the life of Jesus. You suggest things like since someone hasn’t found a record of Pilate saying he had Jesus crucified then it didn’t happen.

    So ultimately what you are asking us to believe is that somewhere in the 3rd for 4th century some guys wrote these books about a man who didn’t exist. They concocted this elaborate story about him being born of a virgin, living a sinless life, being crucified by an angry mob in cohort with a Jewish King and a Roman governor. He was buried and then resurrected three days later. Then these they made up characters like Peter, James, John and Paul went around proclaiming this story and people believed it and that is how the church got started. You might want to explain how they came up with this tale, got so many people involved in this conspiracy, who these mysterious authors were, what would have been their motivation, how it is that this story you suggest was made up in the 3rd or 4th century could have created a following before it was even made up.

    My point is that on the basis of logic alone your statements fall flat.

    By the way, I don’t believe in the historical account of Jesus simply because someone told me to believe it. I have studied this for years, been challenged, asked questions, dealt with doubts, and looked at it every way I can imagine. But I think it is demeaning and unhelpful for people to constantly act as though anyone who accepts orthodox Christianity as true is ignorant, uneducated, unlearned, etc when there are many highly educated and intelligent people who are followers of Christ. As I stated earlier there are volumes of scholarly books on the questions concerning the authenticity and reliability of the New Testament Scriptures.


  41. Hi Starman,

    Thanks. So do you.

    Wow, I never really thought about evidence of any sort and also, why didn’t Jesus write anything? That is a very good question. And your question about the Gnostic Gospels, very interesting question. From what I have read of them so far they don’t seem crazy to me at all. And, if God was inside of us and we could be one with him and we all let our lights shine like we should wouldn’t this be the world Jesus wanted. Why do so many Christians think that is bad? I guess because it would make their interpretation of the Bible wrong and a lot of people don’t like to change. Can you imagine if everyone really did lose their false self what this world would be like, I guess heaven, a new earth. Doesn’t sound so crazy or bad to me. Why can’t we/everyone who wants it bring Jesus back in our hearts, would that not be a second coming? Just another thought.

    I have not made any final conclusion as far as my beliefs go except that I do love and believe in Jesus and God, just don’t know what the picture in my head looks like anymore, you know. I have a lot more questions and I will search until I am satisfied. The more I research it seems other things make more sense to me, feel more right in my heart.

    Thanks alot Starman for adding even more questions to my already overflowing head!! :) )

    Have a great day!

    Someone


  42. Hi Proleftic

    Thanks for the detailed answer.
    I agree that when it comes to religion no argument can really ever be won or lost – so forgive me for bringing it up.
    As you said, it is an argument that has been going on long before we existed, and might (according to your beliefs) go on long after we have left this planet called earth.
    Just a side not – just because the majority of people believe something – including very intelligent people, does not make it true. You just have to go through history (eg. the earth is flat) to see that.
    Keep well.

    Starman


  43. Someone

    I just hope and pray that I am not misleading anyone. Just some questions I have tried to answer myself in the past, and none of the traditional answers really fill that gap.
    You ask why so many christians think this new consciousness which is emerging is bad? Let me tell you why I think so (Please I am not trying to convince anyone of anything – just my own beliefs)
    Firstly, lets take a little 2 or 3 year old playing with a toy. Try and take that toy away from the child and see what happens? They will scream and cry. There can be 1000 other toys in the room, but that child has identified with that specific toy. To the child that has become “my” toy. And what happens when we grow up? This identity (or as Echart calls it – ego) just becomes stronger. My house, my car, my beliefs ect ect. The strongest of these is my religion and my beliefs. That is why people throughout history have been willing to kill for it.
    Most christians have become so identified with their beliefs that they will fight to the death for them, and no evidence will ever change them. Their identity will never allow it.
    You must also remember that when we really believe something, we will find all the evidence to prove ourselves right. And if you do present anything which causes conflict, it just gets rejected as coming from the devil – or whatever else pleases your identity and makes you feel right and safe.
    Another thing – there is a big difference between believing and knowing. Belief comes from others – what we hear, are told, read ect. A knowing is something from deep inside – something you cannot explain to someone else. The sad thing is that so many people cover what the know deep down with what they believe. I think in your case, the knowing is starting to come through strongly. It is happening to millions of people worldwide. A knowing that something needs to change or we as a human species will not survive.
    I think religion is dying out. Of course you will have many Millions to even Billions holding onto their old identity, but as a whole the change cannot be stopped. You just have to do an honest study on how the numbers of church go-ers decreases year by year.
    I myself come from a christian family where my father was our church leader for many years. I used to go to church 6 days a week for more than 30 years. But the knowing deep down was always there – and the day I started listening to the knowing rather than what I was taught to believe, was the day I really started living.
    But my wish is not to try and convert anyone. I say if your belief system works for you, then you have my blessing. Just as long as your belief does not cause harm to others (as the millions of lives that have been lost in the name of religion – esspecially christianity)

    Starman


  44. Starman, Someone,
    True enough that many people accept their belief system because it is what they have always been taught and they either don’t have the time or the interest in pursuing anything that challenges it. Also true is the fact that too often Christianity has done a poor job of teaching its adherents why the things they are taught are true and when they are challenged they crumble because they have never learned how to deal with the challenge or fear of the challenge causes them to abandon their faith.

    Having said that your premise is that unless one abandons orthodox Christianity for Hinduism (and that is exactly what Tolle is teaching) then they are a little baby and can’t give up their toy. In saying this you ignore many facts. The fact that there are a multitude of people who rationally and reasonably defend their faith.

    As to the idea of religion dying out – Eckhart Tolle is teaching religion. But leaving that point for the moment you are judging what is happening by your small slice of the world. While the faith of the Western world has declined the faith of the third world has dramatically increased. The figures are really astounding – In 1900 Africa had 10 million Christians representing 10% of the population. by the year 2000 that had increased to 360 million about half the population. As Phillip Jenkins wrote “Quantitatively, this may be the largetst shift in religious affiliation that has ever occured anywhere.


  45. Proleptic,

    First I would like to thank you so much for the time and effort you put into your message about the Gnostic Gospels. I truly appreciate it. You are so smart, I am truly surprised you can’t see my point of view. :) ))

    Just for the record I don’t hold anyone’s beliefs against them (not that you said I did, I just want to be clear), be it Christian or otherwise. That is really my whole point, why can’t everyone just love like Jesus or try to anyway? Obviously I don’t mean today, it would take a while for everyone to get the message. :) ) I suppose we will probably be long gone if that ever happened. I guess I must admit I wish everyone could be as optimistic as I am about the world but that won’t make it happen. Of course between 1 or 2 million people taking the New Earth classes plus the millions of Christians that do try to love like Jesus we might actually be able to make some SERIOUS PROGRESS! Because that is what Tolle is teaching true, pure love, GOD (what Jesus tried to teach us). Ya’ll can try to spin it how ever you want. I am 100% certain that some people could read the Bible and eventually get what Tolle has taught but I was not one of them, my ego and pain body controlled me and I can’t even count how many other people feel this way. If you have a closed mind and negative attitude or one or the other this book will not sit right with you, you will either not understand it or not want to accept it. I have a VERY open mind, I want to learn as much as my lil’ ole brain will hold. I have to say anyone who does read this book who has an open mind will be changed for the better, THANKS be to GOD for sending it!! You can try to tell me that teaching love is a bad thing all day long and it will NEVER be true. I know there is no convincing anyone. All I can say is just look at Jesus, the way he acted, the way he spoke, the way he loved, the way he forgave, the things he attempted to teach and we failed so miserably to learn. This is another message, are we listening? Will we EVER get it? Can you imagine how exasperated HE must be? Do we just have faith and worship or do we put Jesus’s teachings into action finally?? I don’t know about you but I am not sitting around anymore praying once or twice a day, going to church once a week and waiting. I am going to try to bring Jesus to the people everywhere I go and anyway I can and I hope enough people in the world can get this message and show everyone how it could be and I think you know I don’t mean talking about him, I mean acting like him. I will still pray, I will still have faith, I will still go to church but I am going ACT on what I have learned, not just wait anymore. So many Christians have been waiting and waiting for him to come back. Let’s bring him back in a different way. Imagine how proud and amazed he would be if/when he does come back bopping over the clouds if we were all doing what he tried so hard to teach us, he saw us all “getting it”!!!

    I read something a couple of days ago by someone I would call an incredible teacher, Meister Eckhart, don’t know if you have heard of him or your opinion of him. He said this among many other what I would call brilliant things but I really loved this. “To seek God by rituals is to get the ritual and lose God in the process, for he hides behind it. On the other hand, to seek God without artifice, is to take him as he is, and so doing, a person ‘lives by the Son,’ and is the Life itself.” WOW, surely you have to agree this is a good quote. ;)

    Thanks for listening and have a wonderul day!!

    Someone


  46. Hey Someone,
    I really do like your spirit and I believe with all my heart that you are absolutely sincere in your search for truth and I admire your desire to learn and grow. I sense a genuine openness and kindness in your words.

    I have been praying for you on a regular basis.

    Certainly, teaching love is a good thing. Tolle says some things in his book that are just good common sense and may very well be helpful.

    As I have stated my deep and sincere concern is that he is ultimately leading people away from Jesus Christ. I know you don’t agree with that point, but I hope you will continue to come back and consider some of the points I have and will make in the next few weeks. I do believe you have an open mind and I hope it will be open to the possibility that the foundation Tolle is trying to build is a Christless one.

    My next post on this subject will look at where Tolle got his ideas from and how A New Earth is really a rehash of previous attempts to co-opt Christianity into Eastern Mysticism/hinduism.

    Thanks for the kind words.

    God Bless,
    Proleptic


  47. Hey proleptic,

    Thank you so much, I appreciate your kind words and your prayers, God knows we can all use them. I know this is off subject since this is supposed to be about ET but, would you mind telling me where you think God is and do you really think Jesus is coming on the clouds and there are actual thrones etc. I am not saying that there aren’t, I am just curious what you think. I don’t know and as you can see I am not the type to adapt to someone elses thoughts, I just would like another intelligent opinion on where Heaven, God, Jesus are and what the end will actually look like? Can you help? I am trying to make sense of everything going on in my head. If you would prefer to direct me to another source of information that you agree with I would be just as happy with that. Thank you so much for everything and I will absolutely keep coming back to see what you have written about everything. I enjoy it very much!!

    God Bless you and yours,
    Someone


  48. Greetings Someone,
    Again you ask some good questions. The way the Scriptures teach that God is Omnipresent, present everywhere at all times. Yet, at the same time they do speak of God in localized terms. I think there are a couple of reasons for this. First, while God is omnipresent, He reveals himself or manifests Himself at times in a particular locality. For example, the Old Testament speaks about the presence of God in the Holy of Holies of the Temple. That was thought to be the place where God met with man. But one shouldn’t infer from that that the Old Testament saints had a primitive or defective view of God. David, for example, acknowledged in the Psalms that there was nowhere He could go that God wasn’t.

    So, getting to your question about if God is in heaven – I think we could say that heaven is a place where God manifests His presence in an intensified way, but that does not mean His presence is not other places as well.

    In some ways I think it is hard for us (well, at least me) to wrap my mind around some of these things. If God is, as I believe He is, the Creator of time/space/matter than He exists separate from time/space/matter. So we can’t really confine God to those things. But we have a hard time using language that accurately communicates what we mean apart from using language that speaks of time/space/matter. Hope that makes some sense.

    This is why the Bible uses so much anthropomorphic language when it speaks of God. It talks about God having eyes, ears, hands, feet, etc. But the writers of Scripture clearly understood that God is Spirit and doesn’t literally have these human physical attributes. But in order to communicate the idea of God listening, seeing, moving, and the attributes of God’s strength, love, kindness, etc. the writer’s of Scripture often apply that which is strictly human to the Divine so that they could communicate their point.

    I do believe that the Bible teaches that heaven is a real place. I’m not sure we can think of it in the same way that we might think of another planet or something, Mars for example. It may be a place that is in some other space/time dimension and therefore in some sense closer than what we imagine or think possible yet not here in such a way that we can perceive of it. That is all just speculation on my part and I hesitate to be dogmatic about any of that since the Bible is silent about those things. My reason for thinking of it this way is because of what I see happening after the resurrection of Jesus and the new nature of his physical body. The Scriptures teach that Jesus had a physical resurrection. He was touched, had scars, and ate food yet he seemed to materialize out of nowhere at times and there are instances where he just vanished. Now, I want to emphasize that I am just wildly speculating here, but is it possible that the change in Jesus physical body after the resurrection adapted him for this other dimension – ie for the heavenly realm?

    Are there literal thrones? Since Jesus was physically resurrected and since the Scriptures teach the physicality of human nature is not just a temporary form but permanent nature of the way God created us, and since the physical lives in a physical realm I have no reason to suspect that the idea of a throne is anything but literal. The New Testament speaks of Christ ruling and reigning and being seated on a throne. Of course, ultimately a throne represents kingly power and authority. And that to mean is the main issue – is Jesus really the “King of Kings and Lord of Lords” or not? Is Jesus the Lord before whom we all will bow or not? The Bible teaches that “every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord to the glory of God the Father.”

    As to the nature of heaven or maybe I might say the eternal state, it is my understanding that God is going to create a New Heaven and a New Earth. Contrary to what Tolle teaches about that, it will be a work of God, not something that comes about because of an evolutionary leap or higher consciousness on the part of man. I believe that God intends to bring about complete redemption to this fallen creation. God created this world for His glory and it was created in perfect harmony. As the Lord says in Genesis after he made everything he looked at it and said it was “good.” Sin corrupted everything, not just man. As Paul says in Romans chapter 8 the whole creation “groans and travails” waiting for the redemption. So I think that our eternal state will not be the cartoonish idea of floating on a cloud playing a harp for a billion years, but rather an earthly existence, on an earth redeemed from sin and restored to the perfection it had in the beginning. What that exactly will be like I can’t say, except to say that it will be far better than anything I can imagine.

    Yes, I do believe in a physical return of Jesus Christ. Among orthodox Christians there is agreement on that point. As to the details of the timing of Christ’s coming there are different opinions and ideas (3 main viewpoints with varying ideas within those three schools of thought). So there is diversity among orthodox Christians as to the details of Christ’s coming, but unity that Christ is coming again.

    I think the cloud reference may have to do with the persons who are coming with him. The Bible seems to indicate that when he returns he will be accompanied by the holy angels and by a multitude of saints.

    I hope I didn’t ramble too much. I have tried to distinguish in this comment between my own speculation which may or may not be right and what the Bible teaches. This too me is crucial. I don’t believe God minds us speculating about these things. There is much that God has not told us. The thing we have to be careful about is not making our speculation into fact. At the same time the Bible, God’s self-revelation, is that which we can be sure about and be dogmatic about.

    Hope some of this made sense – I wrote it off the top of my head and sometimes that doesn’t work real well.

    God Bless


  49. Anyone who can say with earnest conviction that ” the Bible, God’s self-revelation, is that which we can be sure about and be dogmatic about”, simply has not read the Old Testament.
    Or, if they have, they have overlooked some of the most morally and ethically reprehensible commandments on God’s green earth!(excuse the pun). Without quoting hundreds of clearly, inane, foolish, barbaric, incomprehensibly unjust and sexually perverse “laws” of “God”, you would have to suspend all decency and morality to entertain such a certainty of their “Divine” nature. We have no space here, but to give you a few you can look up for yourselves to prove my point, try these: Gen.19:5-8, Gen.19:31-32, Exod. 21:2-6, and Deut.13:6-10. But my favorite is Exod. 22:18. That one directly caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands of poor women.
    I have often pointed out to Christians that Christianity has caused untold suffering in the world. That history is so filled with Christian wars, persecutions, torture, burning and hate that no gentle and kind person would call himself a Christian if they knew the truth of Christian history.

    The answer is always the same: “How can I, or any Christian today, be held responsible for what people, who called themselves Christians, have done in the past?” And yet, according to the second Commandment God holds the children responsible for the mistakes, or crimes of their parents, “even unto the third and fourth generation.” In fact the entire concept of Christianity is based upon “original sin,” the ultimate in unjust hereditary guilt. I do not believe in hereditary guilt. The very idea that we, the human race are born in sin because of some small misdeed that Adam was said to have done is foolish. No! It is more than foolish, it is insane. Such insanity is not of God.

    May I suggest you jetison the OT altogether, you have enough apologetics with the NT.

    Your Bother in Spirit Always,

    Wayne


  50. My sign off above was meant to be “Brother” but I am sure you think me to be a “bother”. I happen to believe we are spiritual beings having a human experience, rather than the other way around. God reveals Himself through us and others, he doesn’t write books and is never seen or heard in physical space-time reality. It is a fundamental shift in consciousness when you live that truth.

    Wayne


  51. [...] Eckhart Tolle and A New Earth – Is He Right About What’s Wrong? « Proleptic Life Excellent articles on Tolles at the above link… [...]



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